This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
Are you using Xojo for desktop applications for resale? If so, are you pleased with how it works for that purpose?
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 8:46 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Hello Paul,
My consulting business didn't focus on creating desktop apps for resale. There are a lot of Xojo developers that do however. I was focusing on developing custom software for small and medium businesses and Xojo is an excellent tool to rapidly develop solutions for the business.
I've taken a full time job with our county government and I'm developing Xojo applications for them. Most of them are internal-only web applications to ease in getting the updates into the hands of the people that need them. Just deploy the updated web app and I'm done! Just as it should be. My users literally state that they would quit their jobs if their custom written web apps were taken away from them.
Here are some of the Xojo apps that I've written in the last 2 years:
* A web application that allows the building inspectors to see their building inspections for the day, bulk re-assign the inspections in the case that an inspector is sick or on vacation, and to print a report of the inspections with the private notes from the requestor that might have the gate codes, loose dog on property info, etc. * A web application that allows for document review by the building inspectors allowing them to review affidavits and engineer letters pertaining to permits. The inspector can then accept or reject the letter in the case the letter doesn't meet the requirements. If the letter is rejected, then an email goes to the primary contact on the permit explaining the reason the letter is rejected. All data changes are logged to an audit table. * A desktop/web hybrid application that does data mining / graphing of the data pertaining to building permits, planning applications, and business licenses. This "Dashboard" application generates dozens of charts and publishes the data to various department websites for display. It takes 8 seconds for all of the data to be queried and the charts generated. It's run twice a day automatically and then terminates when done. * The road-inventory application allows for the querying of roads in the counties and tracks their condition and history of maintenance. When the Roads & Bridges department finishes one job, it is far easier and cheaper to move their equipment to close-by roads and this application allows them to do so more efficiently. * Our fleet department has a vertical market application but it has some limited reporting capability. I'm writing a web application that allows for more flexible reporting that doesn't require an install or a license for the vertical market application.
I don't think that's a bad list of applications for less than 2 years on the job! Xojo rocks just like Foxpro rocks.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 10:59 AM, Paul H. Tarver wrote:
Are you using Xojo for desktop applications for resale? If so, are you pleased with how it works for that purpose?
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---
Kevin,
Those are pretty impressive! I appreciate the detailed examples, it helps.
I should probably clarify my interest somewhat. I have three applications for vertical markets I created in VFP and they will probably continue as they are for the foreseeable future. However, the main programming I do is building tools for clients to move data in and out of third party service provider systems. Because each client is different and has unique data characteristics but the third party specifications are relatively static, we end up creating custom versions of the same "types" of applications over and over again and then provide the finished product to the clients in a nice installation package. We then maintain each client's project as a unique development line from that point forward. Next client comes along, we find the most recent development that is similar and copy that as our starting point for the new client.
So given that background I'm wondering if Xojo can provide the following features to critical me:
1) Need ability to link or call objects/functions/procedures from a Global Library of functions 2) Ability to create temporary cursors on the fly for importing and processing (probably a function of the data backend) 3) Ability to copy a project to new folder to create a new development line without changing source project 4) Ability to import and export data at VFP speeds (Xojo doesn't have native data capabilities, right?) 5) Ability to compile to a runtime file and support files for desktop distribution 6) Prefer relative file and folder management (ie: search paths, etc.) 7) ODBC connectivity with the ability to make DSN-less connections on the fly. 8) A real time debugger similar to VFP's
That's a pretty good starting point for what I need. I looked at an older version of Xojo (RealBasic?) back years ago and I downloaded the program when they first changed the name but that's about as far as I got other than some basic playing around with the IDE. So far, I've been reviewing alternative languages for about 3 years and I cannot either find one that is as agile as VFP. Maybe it's just a case of not finding one that works like I think, but ultimately in all the languages I have looked at so far, there comes a point where I throw my hands up and give up because I can do what I need to in VFP so much faster and easier.
Xojo keeps popping up on my radar and I keep wondering if I should give it another run through and see where it takes me.
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:58 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Hello Paul,
My consulting business didn't focus on creating desktop apps for resale. There are a lot of Xojo developers that do however. I was focusing on developing custom software for small and medium businesses and Xojo is an excellent tool to rapidly develop solutions for the business.
I've taken a full time job with our county government and I'm developing Xojo applications for them. Most of them are internal-only web applications to ease in getting the updates into the hands of the people that need them. Just deploy the updated web app and I'm done! Just as it should be. My users literally state that they would quit their jobs if their custom written web apps were taken away from them.
Here are some of the Xojo apps that I've written in the last 2 years:
* A web application that allows the building inspectors to see their building inspections for the day, bulk re-assign the inspections in the case that an inspector is sick or on vacation, and to print a report of the inspections with the private notes from the requestor that might have the gate codes, loose dog on property info, etc. * A web application that allows for document review by the building inspectors allowing them to review affidavits and engineer letters pertaining to permits. The inspector can then accept or reject the letter in the case the letter doesn't meet the requirements. If the letter is rejected, then an email goes to the primary contact on the permit explaining the reason the letter is rejected. All data changes are logged to an audit table. * A desktop/web hybrid application that does data mining / graphing of the data pertaining to building permits, planning applications, and business licenses. This "Dashboard" application generates dozens of charts and publishes the data to various department websites for display. It takes 8 seconds for all of the data to be queried and the charts generated. It's run twice a day automatically and then terminates when done. * The road-inventory application allows for the querying of roads in the counties and tracks their condition and history of maintenance. When the Roads & Bridges department finishes one job, it is far easier and cheaper to move their equipment to close-by roads and this application allows them to do so more efficiently. * Our fleet department has a vertical market application but it has some limited reporting capability. I'm writing a web application that allows for more flexible reporting that doesn't require an install or a license for the vertical market application.
I don't think that's a bad list of applications for less than 2 years on the job! Xojo rocks just like Foxpro rocks.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 10:59 AM, Paul H. Tarver wrote:
Are you using Xojo for desktop applications for resale? If so, are you pleased with how it works for that purpose?
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Let me do my best to answer your questions from below. Remember, Xojo isn't Foxpro and Foxpro isn't Xojo. They're cousin products from different mothers and fathers. :D
1) Yes, available. These can be either classes or modules. You can link in external classes called "Plugins" and you can link to external libraries through includes. (I think that's what they're called. I haven't had to do this yet.)
2) Yes, possible but Xojo isn't quite as strong as VFP on data manipulation. Xojo's native data handler is SQLite. You can create an in-memory database and have query capabilities that way. It's not as "magical" as VFP cursors, but it's possible. When you are done with the in-memory database, it just "goes away". Sound familiar?
3) Yes. Especially with the licensed product (as opposed to the Free version of Xojo), you get a source-code control friendly text format of all projects, windows, classes, modules, etc. The Xojo project is typically housed within a single folder structure unless you explicitly include "something", and then make it external to the project. This project style makes it very easy to copy the folder, open it in Xojo and then start making changes to the copy.
4) The SQLite engine is very close to the VFP table speeds, and would be called their native data capabilities. The transport "mechanism" for data is the RecordSet however. It's not as nice as the VFP data handling capabilities, but it is what it is. RecordSets are very fast, but not as flexible as VFP cursors.
5) Yup. From a single project, (if you have the Pro license as an example), you can compile your desktop application to Windows, Mac, and Linux in a single step. Each compiled application will be put in a corresponding folder for the target platform. The licensing is just like VFP: you can distribute your application to as many sites, for as many customers as you like with no extra expense and without Xojo knowing anything about your customers. (I'm looking at you Servoy and Lianja!)
6) I'm not quite sure what you mean by this point, but see #5 above.
7) Yes, ODBC is one of the native data handlers that is standard with Xojo. MySQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, and Oracle are the others. Of course with ODBC you can get to most databases. Note that I was never able to get the VFP ODBC driver on Linux because Microsoft only provides an MSI installer which doesn't play well with Linux. That was a major bummer for me, being a Linux fan and all.
8) There's a real debugger with Xojo! Again, it might not be as nice as VFP's debugger, but it does something that VFP can't: remote debugging. http://cully.biz/2014/06/27/xojos-not-so-secret-weapon/
Hope this helps.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 01:53 PM, Paul H. Tarver wrote:
Kevin,
Those are pretty impressive! I appreciate the detailed examples, it helps.
I should probably clarify my interest somewhat. I have three applications for vertical markets I created in VFP and they will probably continue as they are for the foreseeable future. However, the main programming I do is building tools for clients to move data in and out of third party service provider systems. Because each client is different and has unique data characteristics but the third party specifications are relatively static, we end up creating custom versions of the same "types" of applications over and over again and then provide the finished product to the clients in a nice installation package. We then maintain each client's project as a unique development line from that point forward. Next client comes along, we find the most recent development that is similar and copy that as our starting point for the new client.
So given that background I'm wondering if Xojo can provide the following features to critical me:
- Need ability to link or call objects/functions/procedures from a Global Library of functions
- Ability to create temporary cursors on the fly for importing and processing (probably a function of the data backend)
- Ability to copy a project to new folder to create a new development line without changing source project
- Ability to import and export data at VFP speeds (Xojo doesn't have native data capabilities, right?)
- Ability to compile to a runtime file and support files for desktop distribution
- Prefer relative file and folder management (ie: search paths, etc.)
- ODBC connectivity with the ability to make DSN-less connections on the fly.
- A real time debugger similar to VFP's
That's a pretty good starting point for what I need. I looked at an older version of Xojo (RealBasic?) back years ago and I downloaded the program when they first changed the name but that's about as far as I got other than some basic playing around with the IDE. So far, I've been reviewing alternative languages for about 3 years and I cannot either find one that is as agile as VFP. Maybe it's just a case of not finding one that works like I think, but ultimately in all the languages I have looked at so far, there comes a point where I throw my hands up and give up because I can do what I need to in VFP so much faster and easier.
Xojo keeps popping up on my radar and I keep wondering if I should give it another run through and see where it takes me.
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:58 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Hello Paul,
My consulting business didn't focus on creating desktop apps for resale. There are a lot of Xojo developers that do however. I was focusing on developing custom software for small and medium businesses and Xojo is an excellent tool to rapidly develop solutions for the business.
I've taken a full time job with our county government and I'm developing Xojo applications for them. Most of them are internal-only web applications to ease in getting the updates into the hands of the people that need them. Just deploy the updated web app and I'm done! Just as it should be. My users literally state that they would quit their jobs if their custom written web apps were taken away from them.
Here are some of the Xojo apps that I've written in the last 2 years:
- A web application that allows the building inspectors to see their building inspections for the day, bulk re-assign the inspections in the case that an inspector is sick or on vacation, and to print a report of the inspections with the private notes from the requestor that might have the gate codes, loose dog on property info, etc.
- A web application that allows for document review by the building inspectors allowing them to review affidavits and engineer letters pertaining to permits. The inspector can then accept or reject the letter in the case the letter doesn't meet the requirements. If the letter is rejected, then an email goes to the primary contact on the permit explaining the reason the letter is rejected. All data changes are logged to an audit table.
- A desktop/web hybrid application that does data mining / graphing of the data pertaining to building permits, planning applications, and business licenses. This "Dashboard" application generates dozens of charts and publishes the data to various department websites for display. It takes 8 seconds for all of the data to be queried and the charts generated. It's run twice a day automatically and then terminates when done.
- The road-inventory application allows for the querying of roads in the counties and tracks their condition and history of maintenance. When the Roads & Bridges department finishes one job, it is far easier and cheaper to move their equipment to close-by roads and this application allows them to do so more efficiently.
- Our fleet department has a vertical market application but it has some limited reporting capability. I'm writing a web application that allows for more flexible reporting that doesn't require an install or a license for the vertical market application.
I don't think that's a bad list of applications for less than 2 years on the job! Xojo rocks just like Foxpro rocks.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 10:59 AM, Paul H. Tarver wrote:
Are you using Xojo for desktop applications for resale? If so, are you pleased with how it works for that purpose?
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html
[excessive quoting removed by server]
It does help. Thank you.
At the very least you've provided some words I can use to investigate further such as the classes vs modules etc
I appreciate it!
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 3:02 PM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
Let me do my best to answer your questions from below. Remember, Xojo isn't Foxpro and Foxpro isn't Xojo. They're cousin products from different mothers and fathers. :D
Yes, available. These can be either classes or modules. You can link in external classes called "Plugins" and you can link to external libraries through includes. (I think that's what they're called. I haven't had to do this yet.)
Yes, possible but Xojo isn't quite as strong as VFP on data manipulation. Xojo's native data handler is SQLite. You can create an in-memory database and have query capabilities that way. It's not as "magical" as VFP cursors, but it's possible. When you are done with the in-memory database, it just "goes away". Sound familiar?
Yes. Especially with the licensed product (as opposed to the Free version of Xojo), you get a source-code control friendly text format of all projects, windows, classes, modules, etc. The Xojo project is typically housed within a single folder structure unless you explicitly include "something", and then make it external to the project. This project style makes it very easy to copy the folder, open it in Xojo and then start making changes to the copy.
The SQLite engine is very close to the VFP table speeds, and would be called their native data capabilities. The transport "mechanism" for data is the RecordSet however. It's not as nice as the VFP data handling capabilities, but it is what it is. RecordSets are very fast, but not as flexible as VFP cursors.
Yup. From a single project, (if you have the Pro license as an example), you can compile your desktop application to Windows, Mac, and Linux in a single step. Each compiled application will be put in a corresponding folder for the target platform. The licensing is just like VFP: you can distribute your application to as many sites, for as many customers as you like with no extra expense and without Xojo knowing anything about your customers. (I'm looking at you Servoy and Lianja!)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this point, but see #5 above.
Yes, ODBC is one of the native data handlers that is standard with Xojo. MySQL, PostgreSQL, MSSQL, and Oracle are the others. Of course with ODBC you can get to most databases. Note that I was never able to get the VFP ODBC driver on Linux because Microsoft only provides an MSI installer which doesn't play well with Linux. That was a major bummer for me, being a Linux fan and all.
There's a real debugger with Xojo! Again, it might not be as nice as VFP's debugger, but it does something that VFP can't: remote debugging. http://cully.biz/2014/06/27/xojos-not-so-secret-weapon/
Hope this helps.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 01:53 PM, Paul H. Tarver wrote: Kevin,
Those are pretty impressive! I appreciate the detailed examples, it helps.
I should probably clarify my interest somewhat. I have three applications for vertical markets I created in VFP and they will probably continue as they are for the foreseeable future. However, the main programming I do is building tools for clients to move data in and out of third party service provider systems. Because each client is different and has unique data characteristics but the third party specifications are relatively static, we end up creating custom versions of the same "types" of applications over and over again and then provide the finished product to the clients in a nice installation package. We then maintain each client's project as a unique development line from that point forward. Next client comes along, we find the most recent development that is similar and copy that as our starting point for the new client.
So given that background I'm wondering if Xojo can provide the following features to critical me:
- Need ability to link or call objects/functions/procedures from a Global Library of functions
- Ability to create temporary cursors on the fly for importing and processing (probably a function of the data backend)
- Ability to copy a project to new folder to create a new development line without changing source project
- Ability to import and export data at VFP speeds (Xojo doesn't have native data capabilities, right?)
- Ability to compile to a runtime file and support files for desktop distribution
- Prefer relative file and folder management (ie: search paths, etc.)
- ODBC connectivity with the ability to make DSN-less connections on the fly.
- A real time debugger similar to VFP's
That's a pretty good starting point for what I need. I looked at an older version of Xojo (RealBasic?) back years ago and I downloaded the program when they first changed the name but that's about as far as I got other than some basic playing around with the IDE. So far, I've been reviewing alternative languages for about 3 years and I cannot either find one that is as agile as VFP. Maybe it's just a case of not finding one that works like I think, but ultimately in all the languages I have looked at so far, there comes a point where I throw my hands up and give up because I can do what I need to in VFP so much faster and easier.
Xojo keeps popping up on my radar and I keep wondering if I should give it another run through and see where it takes me.
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 11:58 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Hello Paul,
My consulting business didn't focus on creating desktop apps for resale. There are a lot of Xojo developers that do however. I was focusing on developing custom software for small and medium businesses and Xojo is an excellent tool to rapidly develop solutions for the business.
I've taken a full time job with our county government and I'm developing Xojo applications for them. Most of them are internal-only web applications to ease in getting the updates into the hands of the people that need them. Just deploy the updated web app and I'm done! Just as it should be. My users literally state that they would quit their jobs if their custom written web apps were taken away from them.
Here are some of the Xojo apps that I've written in the last 2 years:
- A web application that allows the building inspectors to see their building inspections for the day, bulk re-assign the inspections in the case that an inspector is sick or on vacation, and to print a report of the inspections with the private notes from the requestor that might have the gate codes, loose dog on property info, etc.
- A web application that allows for document review by the building inspectors allowing them to review affidavits and engineer letters pertaining to permits. The inspector can then accept or reject the letter in the case the letter doesn't meet the requirements. If the letter is rejected, then an email goes to the primary contact on the permit explaining the reason the letter is rejected. All data changes are logged to an audit table.
- A desktop/web hybrid application that does data mining / graphing of the data pertaining to building permits, planning applications, and business licenses. This "Dashboard" application generates dozens of charts and publishes the data to various department websites for display. It takes 8 seconds for all of the data to be queried and the charts generated. It's run twice a day automatically and then terminates when done.
- The road-inventory application allows for the querying of roads in the counties and tracks their condition and history of maintenance. When the Roads & Bridges department finishes one job, it is far easier and cheaper to move their equipment to close-by roads and this application allows them to do so more efficiently.
- Our fleet department has a vertical market application but it has some limited reporting capability. I'm writing a web application that allows for more flexible reporting that doesn't require an install or a license for the vertical market application.
I don't think that's a bad list of applications for less than 2 years on the job! Xojo rocks just like Foxpro rocks.
-Kevin
On 10/05/2017 10:59 AM, Paul H. Tarver wrote: Are you using Xojo for desktop applications for resale? If so, are you pleased with how it works for that purpose?
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html
[excessive quoting removed by server]
XOJO doesn't support Android development yet. Xamarin does which is write once and portable class libraries allow you to reuse a lot of your base.
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
As long as Kevin doesn't give a Damn about Android dev. - then I guess XOJO suites him just fine - even though it has a Strange name!
:-) -K-
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Russell Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 11:06 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
XOJO doesn't support Android development yet. Xamarin does which is write once and portable class libraries allow you to reuse a lot of your base.
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Well, I often read from experts that rewriting a s/w using new techs was a piece of cake compared to maintaining old clumsy legacy stuff… your story sounds like a counter example.
Thierry Nivelet http://foxincloud.com/ Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud
Le 5 oct. 2017 à 21:43, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com a écrit :
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote: Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I heard a similar story for a web rewrite of a VFP app into .net. Back to square 1 after spending $5M.
Thierry Nivelet http://foxincloud.com/ Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud
Le 5 oct. 2017 à 21:43, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com a écrit :
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote: Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting it can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in the app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes. In my opinion, the future is in the browser. Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps. I am quite literate in C#, still use VFP daily but the future "platform" is JS. I just wish some people would team up to make a dBase-esque language that could transpile to JS. In the context of the client (browser, electron, Cordova) it makes sense if you treat data as cursors, on the server (node.js) it makes sense as a database backend. But what JS gives you with asynchronous calls, it takes away with the added code complexity due to callbacks. However, with JS Promises things have started to change. Regardless, as a business rules specific language JS is not as readable as VFP. So I think that a transpiler would be awesome. One can only hope.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Darren foxdev@ozemail.com.au wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting it can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in the app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known
to
the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully <
kcully@cullytechnologies.com>
wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting
packages
to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I advocate that JavaScript will be tomorrow's big thing since 2005…
A transpiler would have a very hard time understanding language-specific concepts like SET, cursors, etc. and translate them into a different language; it could obviously cope with expressions and functions, and some commands, you'd probably have a lot of manual rework at the end, and you could get lost quite easily, especially in very large projects.
On today's Web applications using frameworks like jQuery/Angular, JavaScript is more and more handled by the framework and developer write less JS lines but creates more structures like MVC, event handlers, and mostly uses high-level methods exposed by the frameworks.
This follows the same trend as programming has experienced for years: write less detailed lines and create more structures made of very light methods calling each others.
My point is that, rather than trying to translate the low level code, it would be more interesting and productive to identify the underlying structures and logical links and build similar structures using another paradigm such as the MVC stuff. FoxInCloud does this for forms: considering that existing forms are the most practical way for a business app user to interact with data, FoxInCloud builds a similar structure (visually and functionnaly) using HTML/CSS and Bootstrap that provides the 'responsive' technology. Next step: understand how the application deals with the data and the GUI (from an outside point of view), and build a similar model (at least a canvas) using the MVC model. Sounds impossible? Not more than adapting a VFP desktop application into a web application 10 years ago.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 01:08, Paul Hemans a écrit :
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes. In my opinion, the future is in the browser. Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps. I am quite literate in C#, still use VFP daily but the future "platform" is JS. I just wish some people would team up to make a dBase-esque language that could transpile to JS. In the context of the client (browser, electron, Cordova) it makes sense if you treat data as cursors, on the server (node.js) it makes sense as a database backend. But what JS gives you with asynchronous calls, it takes away with the added code complexity due to callbacks. However, with JS Promises things have started to change. Regardless, as a business rules specific language JS is not as readable as VFP. So I think that a transpiler would be awesome. One can only hope.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Darren foxdev@ozemail.com.au wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting it can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in the app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known
to
the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully <
kcully@cullytechnologies.com>
wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting
packages
to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
/Transpile to .js/
Rich Hassler modified Feltman's F1's code generator to create JavaScript forms, and it works surprisingly well (though not perfect). Of course that's only the UI but if everything is separated you can keep the back end on Fox and make web calls.
I'm trying to persuade him to come to SWFox and demo it.
Eric
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes. In my opinion, the future is in the browser. Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps. I am quite literate in C#, still use VFP daily but the future "platform" is JS. I just wish some people would team up to make a dBase-esque language that could transpile to JS. In the context of the client (browser, electron, Cordova) it makes sense if you treat data as cursors, on the server (node.js) it makes sense as a database backend. But what JS gives you with asynchronous calls, it takes away with the added code complexity due to callbacks. However, with JS Promises things have started to change. Regardless, as a business rules specific language JS is not as readable as VFP. So I think that a transpiler would be awesome. One can only hope.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Darren foxdev@ozemail.com.au wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting it can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in the app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of
Kevin
Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely
it's
an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well
known
to
the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of
.NET
1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully <
kcully@cullytechnologies.com>
wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago.
They
show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting
packages
to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Ok, I haven't had my coffee yet. It moves the forms to HTML, not Javascript. My bad.
Eric
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Eric Selje eric.selje@gmail.com wrote:
/Transpile to .js/
Rich Hassler modified Feltman's F1's code generator to create JavaScript forms, and it works surprisingly well (though not perfect). Of course that's only the UI but if everything is separated you can keep the back end on Fox and make web calls.
I'm trying to persuade him to come to SWFox and demo it.
Eric
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes. In my opinion, the future is in the browser. Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps. I am quite literate in C#, still use VFP daily but the future "platform" is JS. I just wish some people would team up to make a dBase-esque language that could transpile to JS. In the context of the client (browser, electron, Cordova) it makes sense if you treat data as cursors, on the server (node.js) it makes sense as a database backend. But what JS gives you with asynchronous calls, it takes away with the added code complexity due to callbacks. However, with JS Promises things have started to change. Regardless, as a business rules specific language JS is not as readable as VFP. So I think that a transpiler would be awesome. One can only hope.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Darren foxdev@ozemail.com.au wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app,
that
had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting
it
can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in
the
app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of
Kevin
Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely
it's
an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well
known
to
the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of
.NET
1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully <
kcully@cullytechnologies.com>
wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago.
They
show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting
packages
to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
You need HTML CSS and JS to get something workable
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 14:52, Eric Selje a écrit :
Ok, I haven't had my coffee yet. It moves the forms to HTML, not Javascript. My bad.
Eric
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Eric Selje eric.selje@gmail.com wrote:
/Transpile to .js/
Rich Hassler modified Feltman's F1's code generator to create JavaScript forms, and it works surprisingly well (though not perfect). Of course that's only the UI but if everything is separated you can keep the back end on Fox and make web calls.
I'm trying to persuade him to come to SWFox and demo it.
Eric
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:08 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes. In my opinion, the future is in the browser. Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps. I am quite literate in C#, still use VFP daily but the future "platform" is JS. I just wish some people would team up to make a dBase-esque language that could transpile to JS. In the context of the client (browser, electron, Cordova) it makes sense if you treat data as cursors, on the server (node.js) it makes sense as a database backend. But what JS gives you with asynchronous calls, it takes away with the added code complexity due to callbacks. However, with JS Promises things have started to change. Regardless, as a business rules specific language JS is not as readable as VFP. So I think that a transpiler would be awesome. One can only hope.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Darren foxdev@ozemail.com.au wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app,
that
had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted. Back to using VFP for now. Not suggesting
it
can't be done but in this case an extreme amount of business logic in
the
app and the task is mammoth.
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of
Kevin
Cully Sent: Friday, 6 October 2017 6:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely
it's
an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well
known
to
the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of
.NET
1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
> For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully <
kcully@cullytechnologies.com>
wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
> This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8 > > It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago.
They
> show > working in Chrome and not Bing. > > the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting
packages
> to it. > >
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 12:08 AM, Paul Hemans wrote:
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes.
It's certainly welcome that things like TypeScript are gaining widespread acceptance and providing a way to impose sanity on JavaScript. Imagine if browsers started supporting it natively ...
Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps.
WebAssembly in particular is very exciting, especially once more and more languages start to target it.
Typescript is Microsoft;
Microsoft used to impose *de facto standards* in the 90's, no more chance any time soon.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:03, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 12:08 AM, Paul Hemans wrote:
I think everyone should be aware that Anders Hejlsberg (Turbo Pascal, Delphi and C#) is now on Typescript. This speaks volumes.
It's certainly welcome that things like TypeScript are gaining widespread acceptance and providing a way to impose sanity on JavaScript. Imagine if browsers started supporting it natively ...
Projects like asm.js, webassembly and in particular WebGL with ,three.js or babylon.js, are going to blindside desktop apps.
WebAssembly in particular is very exciting, especially once more and more languages start to target it.
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft;
It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft;
It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers. [Sorry but I couldn’t resist, it's FRIDAY!]
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hemans Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:38 PM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft;
It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
"I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers." Yes, and I definitely will never forgive them for that!
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Paul H. Tarver paul@tpcqpc.com wrote:
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers. [Sorry but I couldn’t resist, it's FRIDAY!]
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hemans Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:38 PM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft;
It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
+1
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hemans Sent: Saturday, 7 October 2017 9:37 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
"I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers." Yes, and I definitely will never forgive them for that!
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:50 AM, Paul H. Tarver paul@tpcqpc.com wrote:
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers. [Sorry but I couldn’t resist, it's FRIDAY!]
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Paul Hemans Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 4:38 PM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft;
It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Oct 6, 2017, at 4:50 PM, Paul H. Tarver paul@tpcqpc.com wrote:
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure Microsoft "forked" Foxpro developers.
Amen to that, brother!
-- Ed Leafe
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On Oct 6, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
That certainly helps, but what is more important is having the copyright to the code owned by an independent foundation.
Python is owned by the Python Software Foundation. OpenStack is owned by the OpenStack Foundation. Kubernetes is owned by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation.
What that means is that the code is not for sale. No corporation can buy the code and bury it, as Microsoft did with FoxPro.
-- Ed Leafe
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Ed, with Typescript the code is released under the Apache license so I don't see copyright as a problem.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Ed Leafe ed@leafe.com wrote:
On Oct 6, 2017, at 4:37 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end
up
in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that
it
has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry
up.
That certainly helps, but what is more important is having the copyright to the code owned by an independent foundation.
Python is owned by the Python Software Foundation. OpenStack is owned by the OpenStack Foundation. Kubernetes is owned by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation.
What that means is that the code is not for sale. No corporation can buy the code and bury it, as Microsoft did with FoxPro.
-- Ed Leafe
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[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Oct 7, 2017, at 3:34 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
Ed, with Typescript the code is released under the Apache license so I don't see copyright as a problem.
That's certainly true, but my concern is that there is one company with its own needs running the show. Sure, others could fork it and develop it independently, but it's tough to do that without the community.
-- Ed Leafe
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One thought.... I wonder if the outcome for VFP would be different had it existed as a mainstream product now.
The folks who are involved in the "open source" movement in M$ obviously either don't know of the existence and power of VFP or have simply dismissed the product as end of life so you can't really expect them to pick it back up and run with it to "open source" as we all wanted them to 10 years ago.
Maybe there could be a Fox renaissance ... I'll live in hope but I won't hold my breath.
Dave
-----Original Message----- From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ed Leafe Sent: 08 October 2017 17:59 To: ProFox Mailing List profox@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
On Oct 7, 2017, at 3:34 PM, Paul Hemans paul_hemans@laberg.com.au wrote:
Ed, with Typescript the code is released under the Apache license so I don't see copyright as a problem.
That's certainly true, but my concern is that there is one company with its own needs running the show. Sure, others could fork it and develop it independently, but it's tough to do that without the community.
-- Ed Leafe
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[excessive quoting removed by server]
The top 10 contributers being from MS (https://github.com/Microsoft/TypeScript/graphs/contributors), if they decide to stop the project, no one will be able to continue. More a marketing trick than real 'open source'. To me, 'open source' means that many devs from various horizon is able to take over the project and even the lead.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 23:37, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft; It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
BTW: How did you figure out that the top 10 were from MS, 1 has a gmail account and another seems to be from facebook.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
The top 10 contributers being from MS (https://github.com/Microsoft/ TypeScript/graphs/contributors), if they decide to stop the project, no one will be able to continue. More a marketing trick than real 'open source'. To me, 'open source' means that many devs from various horizon is able to take over the project and even the lead.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 23:37, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Being open source guarantees that it can be forked and that we don't end up in the dead end that VFP became. But there are other options for strongly typed JS available. It is just that being associated with MS means that it has stronger support, whereas other open source projects can simply dry up.
On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
developed and promoted by Microsoft, and widely considered as part of the
MS ecosystem even if it's technically open source.
perceptions weigh more than facts, I can testify.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 16:55, Alan Bourke a écrit :
On Fri, 6 Oct 2017, at 03:14 PM, Thierry Nivelet wrote:
Typescript is Microsoft; It's also open source, and only one of a range of similar tools.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Le 07/10/2017 à 22:29, Paul Hemans a écrit :
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
Will answer with details tomorrow
BTW: How did you figure out that the top 10 were from MS, 1 has a gmail account and another seems to be from facebook.
just click on the name
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 07/10/2017 à 22:29, Paul Hemans a écrit :
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
Well, theorically true, very difficult practically.
As I mentioned earlier, all major contributors are Microsoft employees or close to, and have been working on that project for years, probably full time if you take a close look at the contribution graphs.
Language translaters are a difficult matter that require a strong academic background and daily involvement in the project.
That's why I can't see how 'simple' users could take over the project if Microsoft decided to withdraw.
If you fork the project, your contribution can go into the mainstream releases ONLY if you issue a 'pull request' and if the project manager(s) accept it and merge it into the main branch. If Microsoft removes resource from this project without transferring the lead to someone else, and if no one's forked branch really becomes a leader, there is no real way to gather contributions into a fruitful manner.
You could theoretically imagine to make your fork become a TypeScriptBis with its own release cycle and register it into bower, chocolatey, grunt and the like, however that looks like a ScFi scenario IMO.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Hi Thierry, I think you are looking at Typescript from the perspective of the VFP community which is now quite small, and for us to support it would be a huge challenge. However, if MS abandoned Typescript, it would be no problem because Typescript is now an official language at Google.
Speaking of transpilers and so forth, as far as language translations go, VFP is a challenge because it is ambiguous so it defies parsers. Though recently by chance I was working on a project to do with chatbots. I was intrigued because human language is ambiguous, and the chatbot parser did surprisingly well. The chatbot parser (a Typescript engine) could do VFP parsing. However, it is irrelevant because I could never find the time or the funding for a project like that.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Le 07/10/2017 à 22:29, Paul Hemans a écrit :
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
Well, theorically true, very difficult practically.
As I mentioned earlier, all major contributors are Microsoft employees or close to, and have been working on that project for years, probably full time if you take a close look at the contribution graphs.
Language translaters are a difficult matter that require a strong academic background and daily involvement in the project.
That's why I can't see how 'simple' users could take over the project if Microsoft decided to withdraw.
If you fork the project, your contribution can go into the mainstream releases ONLY if you issue a 'pull request' and if the project manager(s) accept it and merge it into the main branch. If Microsoft removes resource from this project without transferring the lead to someone else, and if no one's forked branch really becomes a leader, there is no real way to gather contributions into a fruitful manner.
You could theoretically imagine to make your fork become a TypeScriptBis with its own release cycle and register it into bower, chocolatey, grunt and the like, however that looks like a ScFi scenario IMO.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Hi Paul,
Good news, if Googles enters the dance, Typescript is on good tracks to become a standard; good job Microsoft, there must have been a lot of negotiations behind the scene.
However, I saw quite a bunch of open source projects in the JavaScript world that were frozen because the author no longer seemed to pay any interest in the pull requests and to improving the project; eg. jQueryUI and jQuery mobile no longer evolves since the main contributors have withdrawn.
Ultimately I mean that open source is only a way for a project to live, under the vital condition that a group of leaders are motivated (and paid) to dedicate enough time to it.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Hi Thierry, I think you are looking at Typescript from the perspective of the VFP community which is now quite small, and for us to support it would be a huge challenge. However, if MS abandoned Typescript, it would be no problem because Typescript is now an official language at Google.
Speaking of transpilers and so forth, as far as language translations go, VFP is a challenge because it is ambiguous so it defies parsers. Though recently by chance I was working on a project to do with chatbots. I was intrigued because human language is ambiguous, and the chatbot parser did surprisingly well. The chatbot parser (a Typescript engine) could do VFP parsing. However, it is irrelevant because I could never find the time or the funding for a project like that.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Le 07/10/2017 à 22:29, Paul Hemans a écrit :
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
Well, theorically true, very difficult practically.
As I mentioned earlier, all major contributors are Microsoft employees or close to, and have been working on that project for years, probably full time if you take a close look at the contribution graphs.
Language translaters are a difficult matter that require a strong academic background and daily involvement in the project.
That's why I can't see how 'simple' users could take over the project if Microsoft decided to withdraw.
If you fork the project, your contribution can go into the mainstream releases ONLY if you issue a 'pull request' and if the project manager(s) accept it and merge it into the main branch. If Microsoft removes resource from this project without transferring the lead to someone else, and if no one's forked branch really becomes a leader, there is no real way to gather contributions into a fruitful manner.
You could theoretically imagine to make your fork become a TypeScriptBis with its own release cycle and register it into bower, chocolatey, grunt and the like, however that looks like a ScFi scenario IMO.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
In the case of Google I think this was an honest to God look at the tech and the decision that it was better than Dart (Google's own version). I have to say it is a very impressive language, because it accommodates both strong and weak typing. So you can do things like import jQuery and get code completion, but not error checking, whereas the rest of your code could be strongly typed.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Hi Paul,
Good news, if Googles enters the dance, Typescript is on good tracks to become a standard; good job Microsoft, there must have been a lot of negotiations behind the scene.
However, I saw quite a bunch of open source projects in the JavaScript world that were frozen because the author no longer seemed to pay any interest in the pull requests and to improving the project; eg. jQueryUI and jQuery mobile no longer evolves since the main contributors have withdrawn.
Ultimately I mean that open source is only a way for a project to live, under the vital condition that a group of leaders are motivated (and paid) to dedicate enough time to it.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Hi Thierry, I think you are looking at Typescript from the perspective of the VFP community which is now quite small, and for us to support it would be a huge challenge. However, if MS abandoned Typescript, it would be no problem because Typescript is now an official language at Google.
Speaking of transpilers and so forth, as far as language translations go, VFP is a challenge because it is ambiguous so it defies parsers. Though recently by chance I was working on a project to do with chatbots. I was intrigued because human language is ambiguous, and the chatbot parser did surprisingly well. The chatbot parser (a Typescript engine) could do VFP parsing. However, it is irrelevant because I could never find the time or the funding for a project like that.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Le 07/10/2017 à 22:29, Paul Hemans a écrit :
But even if they decided to stop it someone could pick up the code and go
on. With VFP we were simply stuffed. 'Open source' means the source is available.
Well, theorically true, very difficult practically.
As I mentioned earlier, all major contributors are Microsoft employees or close to, and have been working on that project for years, probably full time if you take a close look at the contribution graphs.
Language translaters are a difficult matter that require a strong academic background and daily involvement in the project.
That's why I can't see how 'simple' users could take over the project if Microsoft decided to withdraw.
If you fork the project, your contribution can go into the mainstream releases ONLY if you issue a 'pull request' and if the project manager(s) accept it and merge it into the main branch. If Microsoft removes resource from this project without transferring the lead to someone else, and if no one's forked branch really becomes a leader, there is no real way to gather contributions into a fruitful manner.
You could theoretically imagine to make your fork become a TypeScriptBis with its own release cycle and register it into bower, chocolatey, grunt and the like, however that looks like a ScFi scenario IMO.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
The VFP community which is now quite small
Rather than small, I would say that the number of leaders is small, mainly because -- in my eyes -- the 'elite' of the community is reluctant to renew itself, and accept new members, new ideas, new ways to move forward.
eg., Chen of Baiyujia has done an **incredible job** with VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced -- he has done things that no one would ever have thought possible, just because he was *convinced* it was possible. Chen has posted articles about his work for at least 7 years (mainly on Foxite).
The 2017 'Hard to kill' book by Whil Hentzen does not even mention VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced!!
The whole book should have been dedicated to this invention, to the incredible opportunities it brings, how we could interest young guys on a language that we compile ourserves, and tweak in almost all directions as we want regardless of what large corporations tell us to do. There should be tens of developers offering Chen to help somehow and enjoying this revival.
Instead of betting on its strength, this community has accepted its death sentence as inevitable and is somehow waiting in the death row, just telling stories about the good old times when we could run a full accounting package with 1k RAM. on a Commodore bought at Radio Shack.
Still time to lift the head up.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Interesting discussion thanks for your input.
In my opinion, we have stagnated because the evolution of the community requires a roadmap that provides something that the old path could not do. Tech has moved on. I appreciate Chen's work but in my mind the future of coding is in a combination of Object Relational Mapping, the Internet Of Things, Crypto and the Semantic web. The glue that holds it together should be a VFP-esque language because that makes the rules literate for humans.
Visual programming is great, I love Blockly for simple rules. I would hate to try and code a warehouse management system in it.
It is like Behaviour Driven Development. I want to be able to tell the computer the business rules without being shoe-horned into a computer language which is optimized for execution. It should be a language for the exchange of concepts between humans and computers. That is where BASIC, but more specifically dBase, really revolutionized coding.
For me, I see an opportunity for dBase rules to transpile into JS. It obviously requires a substantial database layer but by using established ORMs (like knex.js) it means you don't have to do the mechanics of the data storage. It is a parsing problem.
Anyway just musing.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
The VFP community which is now quite small
Rather than small, I would say that the number of leaders is small, mainly because -- in my eyes -- the 'elite' of the community is reluctant to renew itself, and accept new members, new ideas, new ways to move forward.
eg., Chen of Baiyujia has done an **incredible job** with VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced -- he has done things that no one would ever have thought possible, just because he was *convinced* it was possible. Chen has posted articles about his work for at least 7 years (mainly on Foxite).
The 2017 'Hard to kill' book by Whil Hentzen does not even mention VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced!!
The whole book should have been dedicated to this invention, to the incredible opportunities it brings, how we could interest young guys on a language that we compile ourserves, and tweak in almost all directions as we want regardless of what large corporations tell us to do. There should be tens of developers offering Chen to help somehow and enjoying this revival.
Instead of betting on its strength, this community has accepted its death sentence as inevitable and is somehow waiting in the death row, just telling stories about the good old times when we could run a full accounting package with 1k RAM. on a Commodore bought at Radio Shack.
Still time to lift the head up.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
If anyone is just looking for VFP syntax in a more modern paradigm, Lianja and XSharp are right there.
Alan, For my tastes I find both Lianja and XSharp a little expensive, however it might well be justified as they need to run a business and develop a product.
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:10 AM, Alan Bourke alanpbourke@fastmail.fm wrote:
If anyone is just looking for VFP syntax in a more modern paradigm, Lianja and XSharp are right there.
-- Alan Bourke alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Well, all this is too theoritical for me to contribute in any useful way.
All I know is the level of difficulty to properly parse a language; eg. VFP, we did some parsing for FAA; very difficult to make it structured, maintainable and reliable on the whole spread of cases. Transpiling would probably be twice as difficult, it'd require a decent team.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 09/10/2017 à 15:08, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Interesting discussion thanks for your input.
In my opinion, we have stagnated because the evolution of the community requires a roadmap that provides something that the old path could not do. Tech has moved on. I appreciate Chen's work but in my mind the future of coding is in a combination of Object Relational Mapping, the Internet Of Things, Crypto and the Semantic web. The glue that holds it together should be a VFP-esque language because that makes the rules literate for humans.
Visual programming is great, I love Blockly for simple rules. I would hate to try and code a warehouse management system in it.
It is like Behaviour Driven Development. I want to be able to tell the computer the business rules without being shoe-horned into a computer language which is optimized for execution. It should be a language for the exchange of concepts between humans and computers. That is where BASIC, but more specifically dBase, really revolutionized coding.
For me, I see an opportunity for dBase rules to transpile into JS. It obviously requires a substantial database layer but by using established ORMs (like knex.js) it means you don't have to do the mechanics of the data storage. It is a parsing problem.
Anyway just musing.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
The VFP community which is now quite small
Rather than small, I would say that the number of leaders is small, mainly because -- in my eyes -- the 'elite' of the community is reluctant to renew itself, and accept new members, new ideas, new ways to move forward.
eg., Chen of Baiyujia has done an **incredible job** with VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced -- he has done things that no one would ever have thought possible, just because he was *convinced* it was possible. Chen has posted articles about his work for at least 7 years (mainly on Foxite).
The 2017 'Hard to kill' book by Whil Hentzen does not even mention VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced!!
The whole book should have been dedicated to this invention, to the incredible opportunities it brings, how we could interest young guys on a language that we compile ourserves, and tweak in almost all directions as we want regardless of what large corporations tell us to do. There should be tens of developers offering Chen to help somehow and enjoying this revival.
Instead of betting on its strength, this community has accepted its death sentence as inevitable and is somehow waiting in the death row, just telling stories about the good old times when we could run a full accounting package with 1k RAM. on a Commodore bought at Radio Shack.
Still time to lift the head up.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Thierry, You are correct. It is too theoretical I let my Christmas wish list get the better of me.
On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
Well, all this is too theoritical for me to contribute in any useful way.
All I know is the level of difficulty to properly parse a language; eg. VFP, we did some parsing for FAA; very difficult to make it structured, maintainable and reliable on the whole spread of cases. Transpiling would probably be twice as difficult, it'd require a decent team.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 09/10/2017 à 15:08, Paul Hemans a écrit :
Interesting discussion thanks for your input.
In my opinion, we have stagnated because the evolution of the community requires a roadmap that provides something that the old path could not do. Tech has moved on. I appreciate Chen's work but in my mind the future of coding is in a combination of Object Relational Mapping, the Internet Of Things, Crypto and the Semantic web. The glue that holds it together should be a VFP-esque language because that makes the rules literate for humans.
Visual programming is great, I love Blockly for simple rules. I would hate to try and code a warehouse management system in it.
It is like Behaviour Driven Development. I want to be able to tell the computer the business rules without being shoe-horned into a computer language which is optimized for execution. It should be a language for the exchange of concepts between humans and computers. That is where BASIC, but more specifically dBase, really revolutionized coding.
For me, I see an opportunity for dBase rules to transpile into JS. It obviously requires a substantial database layer but by using established ORMs (like knex.js) it means you don't have to do the mechanics of the data storage. It is a parsing problem.
Anyway just musing.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Thierry Nivelet <tnivelet@foxincloud.com
wrote:
Le 09/10/2017 à 12:57, Paul Hemans a écrit :
The VFP community which is now quite small
Rather than small, I would say that the number of leaders is small,
mainly because -- in my eyes -- the 'elite' of the community is reluctant to renew itself, and accept new members, new ideas, new ways to move forward.
eg., Chen of Baiyujia has done an **incredible job** with VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced -- he has done things that no one would ever have thought possible, just because he was *convinced* it was possible. Chen has posted articles about his work for at least 7 years (mainly on Foxite).
The 2017 'Hard to kill' book by Whil Hentzen does not even mention VFP C++ compiler and VFP advanced!!
The whole book should have been dedicated to this invention, to the incredible opportunities it brings, how we could interest young guys on a language that we compile ourserves, and tweak in almost all directions as we want regardless of what large corporations tell us to do. There should be tens of developers offering Chen to help somehow and enjoying this revival.
Instead of betting on its strength, this community has accepted its death sentence as inevitable and is somehow waiting in the death row, just telling stories about the good old times when we could run a full accounting package with 1k RAM. on a Commodore bought at Radio Shack.
Still time to lift the head up.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Being open source means that in theory yes, but the open source world is littered with half-finished, unpatched and abandoned projects because the developers wanted the new shiny or some financial reward.
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017, at 10:42 PM, Darren wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted
None of these are a necessarily a .NET problem though, you can point to similar disasters with any platform and\or language. They will have been the usual lack of scoping, lack of ownership, overselling, overexpectations ....
I have seen a few potential projects that the replacement had to be identical to the former product, only on a new platform. Instead of making an app that fit the platform first and doing what is needed as well.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Alan Bourke alanpbourke@fastmail.fm wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017, at 10:42 PM, Darren wrote:
I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted
None of these are a necessarily a .NET problem though, you can point to similar disasters with any platform and\or language. They will have been the usual lack of scoping, lack of ownership, overselling, overexpectations ....
-- Alan Bourke alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I'm convinced that although Vista had serious issues, the perception that Vista was terrible was made worse because of the major changes to the UI. Nobody likes change and inertia being what it is, our nature is to resist any attempt to make us change.
And yes I am including myself in that assessment and I still believe I'm right about the fact that there still is NO replacement equal to VFP.
No hypocrisy there, right?
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 6, 2017, at 7:17 AM, Stephen Russell srussell705@gmail.com wrote:
I have seen a few potential projects that the replacement had to be identical to the former product, only on a new platform. Instead of making an app that fit the platform first and doing what is needed as well.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Alan Bourke alanpbourke@fastmail.fm wrote:
On Thu, 5 Oct 2017, at 10:42 PM, Darren wrote: I know of a bank that spent upwards of 30M trying to port a VFP app, that had been developed over 15+ years with a group of developers, to .NET - all got dumped. 30M+ wasted
None of these are a necessarily a .NET problem though, you can point to similar disasters with any platform and\or language. They will have been the usual lack of scoping, lack of ownership, overselling, overexpectations ....
-- Alan Bourke alanpbourke (at) fastmail (dot) fm
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I can confirm this situation. I wrote a very complex, custom management system with VFP back office which synced to a Java based public web system sitting on top of a FirebirdSQL database.
After 15 years with at least 6 different programmers trying to re-write my system they are still using all of my programming and in spite of them not doing business with me for at least 8 of those years that old workhorse built on VFP just keeps humming along.
No idea how much they've spent trying to replace that system but so far nothing beats the Fox.
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote: Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
To me the value is not so much in VFP, but in the intelligence accumulated (capitalized) into the software along the years, what finance people call 'intangible'. That's where the value really is, as we've written this back in 2010 (http://foxincloud.com/why.php).
Balmer betting on a 'savior' technology back in the early 2000' just forgot that 20 years of accumulated value could certainly not be rebuilt in 5 or even 10 years.
That's why we created FoxInCloud, to offer a bridge across technologies that would preserve this accumulated value.
We're now thinking of machine learning: how FoxInCloud can learn from seeing the application running on the Web to build a reprogramming canvass under a REST technology such as Angular: under each user event, what data is needed and what control needs refresh, which model/view/controller are needed and which one can be shared across events.
The idea behind is that the visible part of the application (the GUI) properly reflects how the business needs to interact with the outside world's events and the data, and this should be preserved regardless of the underlying technology. And there must be a way to implement this invisible part in a different technology.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 04:37, Paul H. Tarver a écrit :
I can confirm this situation. I wrote a very complex, custom management system with VFP back office which synced to a Java based public web system sitting on top of a FirebirdSQL database.
After 15 years with at least 6 different programmers trying to re-write my system they are still using all of my programming and in spite of them not doing business with me for at least 8 of those years that old workhorse built on VFP just keeps humming along.
No idea how much they've spent trying to replace that system but so far nothing beats the Fox.
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote: Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Thierry, I think you are onto something, though my perspective is not so much on the interface but rather the business rules. That is where I see the intangibles. Foxers have accumulated a library of business domain knowledge and some are now retiring. All that knowledge is going to be lost. What is needed, in my opinion, is a truly flexible business rules framework. The key to that is having a layer that responds to database field and record triggers without being tied to the underlying storage mechanics. It needs a universal dictionary and that is where the semantic web is heading.
It will be a shame to see this knowledge disperse when it has so much potential.
On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Thierry Nivelet tnivelet@foxincloud.com wrote:
To me the value is not so much in VFP, but in the intelligence accumulated (capitalized) into the software along the years, what finance people call 'intangible'. That's where the value really is, as we've written this back in 2010 (http://foxincloud.com/why.php).
Balmer betting on a 'savior' technology back in the early 2000' just forgot that 20 years of accumulated value could certainly not be rebuilt in 5 or even 10 years.
That's why we created FoxInCloud, to offer a bridge across technologies that would preserve this accumulated value.
We're now thinking of machine learning: how FoxInCloud can learn from seeing the application running on the Web to build a reprogramming canvass under a REST technology such as Angular: under each user event, what data is needed and what control needs refresh, which model/view/controller are needed and which one can be shared across events.
The idea behind is that the visible part of the application (the GUI) properly reflects how the business needs to interact with the outside world's events and the data, and this should be preserved regardless of the underlying technology. And there must be a way to implement this invisible part in a different technology.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 04:37, Paul H. Tarver a écrit :
I can confirm this situation. I wrote a very complex, custom management system with VFP back office which synced to a Java based public web system sitting on top of a FirebirdSQL database.
After 15 years with at least 6 different programmers trying to re-write my system they are still using all of my programming and in spite of them not doing business with me for at least 8 of those years that old workhorse built on VFP just keeps humming along.
No idea how much they've spent trying to replace that system but so far nothing beats the Fox.
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com
wrote:
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully < kcully@cullytechnologies.com> wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been
developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
< To me the value is not so much in VFP, but in the intelligence accumulated (capitalized) into the software along the years, what finance people call 'intangible'.>
+1
Paul H. Tarver Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Thierry Nivelet Sent: Friday, October 06, 2017 2:00 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
To me the value is not so much in VFP, but in the intelligence accumulated (capitalized) into the software along the years, what finance people call 'intangible'. That's where the value really is, as we've written this back in 2010 (http://foxincloud.com/why.php).
Balmer betting on a 'savior' technology back in the early 2000' just forgot that 20 years of accumulated value could certainly not be rebuilt in 5 or even 10 years.
That's why we created FoxInCloud, to offer a bridge across technologies that would preserve this accumulated value.
We're now thinking of machine learning: how FoxInCloud can learn from seeing the application running on the Web to build a reprogramming canvass under a REST technology such as Angular: under each user event, what data is needed and what control needs refresh, which model/view/controller are needed and which one can be shared across events.
The idea behind is that the visible part of the application (the GUI) properly reflects how the business needs to interact with the outside world's events and the data, and this should be preserved regardless of the underlying technology. And there must be a way to implement this invisible part in a different technology.
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 06/10/2017 à 04:37, Paul H. Tarver a écrit :
I can confirm this situation. I wrote a very complex, custom management system with VFP back office which synced to a Java based public web system sitting on top of a FirebirdSQL database.
After 15 years with at least 6 different programmers trying to re-write my system they are still using all of my programming and in spite of them not doing business with me for at least 8 of those years that old workhorse built on VFP just keeps humming along.
No idea how much they've spent trying to replace that system but so far nothing beats the Fox.
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 2:43 PM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
On 10/05/2017 01:25 PM, Bill Anderson wrote: Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing
with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?<<
On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Kevin Cully kcully@cullytechnologies.com wrote:
For 20 years now, Microsoft has been telling me that I've been developing with an inferior tool and that .NET is better. Is it ready now?
I think I'll stick with Foxpro and now Xojo for developing business solutions.
I don't hate .NET. I'm just going to continue to ignore it.
On 10/04/2017 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yecu4g5JYB8
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
the beginning goes over NuGet if you are unfamiliar with posting packages to it.
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On 2017-10-05 15:43, Kevin Cully wrote:
I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company.
They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch.
I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
SOMEBODY got fired for that one!!!! I used to work for a global tutoring company with a similar story. Going on 8 years after I left, they still haven't replaced the application I stabilized and improved. And I mean that very literally--it's the EXACT SAME VERSION as when I left in July 2010. NEVER UPDATED SINCE. I'm proud of the fact that despite their efforts to replace my app, it's still used globally. :-)
Reminds me of all the COBOL programmers who got rehired to fix code that had never been replaced prior to Y2K.
Hang in to your VFP y'all, they are going to keep needing us for a while. Maybe until Y3K!!!! :)
Paul
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2017, at 10:31 PM, mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com wrote:
On 2017-10-05 15:43, Kevin Cully wrote: I worked for a company that produced Real Estate software for the commercial side of things. We had a national client that said they were leaving our product to develop a new .NET solution with another company. They returned after 1.5 years and after spending $2.1M. They started asking us for enhancements again. Ouch. I'm figure throwing away a working system *may* work, but most likely it's an expensive lesson to someone.
SOMEBODY got fired for that one!!!! I used to work for a global tutoring company with a similar story. Going on 8 years after I left, they still haven't replaced the application I stabilized and improved. And I mean that very literally--it's the EXACT SAME VERSION as when I left in July 2010. NEVER UPDATED SINCE. I'm proud of the fact that despite their efforts to replace my app, it's still used globally. :-)
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On 2017-10-05 13:25, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
Bwahahahahaha!!!!! That's hilarious!!!!!!!!!!
On 2017-10-05 13:25, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
That is INSANE! What year was that???
Michael,
I'm pretty sure it was at our December 2000 LA Fox meeting.
Bill Anderson
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 12:17 PM, < mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
On 2017-10-05 13:25, Bill Anderson wrote:
Kevin,
At our user group we were told by a Microsoft representative (well known to the Fox community) that Dell was throwing away all their internal applications **sight unseen** to rewrite them in the beta version of .NET 1.0.
I wonder how that turned out?
Bill Anderson
That is INSANE! What year was that???
[excessive quoting removed by server]
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 12:38 PM, < mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
On 2017-10-19 12:03, Bill Anderson wrote:
Michael,
I'm pretty sure it was at our December 2000 LA Fox meeting.
Ah, the DotNet boom/bust timeframe. Remember when M$ was putting .Net behind EVERYTHING!?!?!?! Office.Net, VS.Net, Toilet.Net, ....
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Stephen Russell srussell705@gmail.com wrote:
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
No need. Unlike DotNet, VFP is a stable and mature product ;)
Toilet.Net was actually pretty nice.
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Ted Roche tedroche@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Stephen Russell srussell705@gmail.com wrote:
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
No need. Unlike DotNet, VFP is a stable and mature product ;)
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On 2017-10-19 15:34, Ted Roche wrote:
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:14 PM, Stephen Russell srussell705@gmail.com wrote:
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
No need. Unlike DotNet, VF
ZZZZINGGGG! lol
On 2017-10-20 04:39, Alan Bourke wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017, at 08:14 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
it could have done with a lot more upgrades.
I heard it had used VFP's FLUSH function pretty effectively. lol
On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:38 AM, < mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
On 2017-10-20 04:39, Alan Bourke wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017, at 08:14 PM, Stephen Russell wrote:
I did get a chuckle out of that. Since that time VFP has had how many upgrades?
it could have done with a lot more upgrades.
I heard it had used VFP's FLUSH function pretty effectively. lol
It did park VFP in its tracks.
I know that visual Studio got better each version presented to the public. Not only the M$ bits but the secondary tool vendors who enhanced those bits kept getting better and better with their offerings.
M$ put our free versions for you to download and use. They didn't include the big shop functionality but no problem. You got an IDE that could do Win Forms, Web Forms, Web Services, and over time it delivered a lot of the greatness for HTML5, CSS, jQuery all still at no cost to you.
On 2017-10-20 11:20, Stephen Russell wrote:
I heard it had used VFP's FLUSH function pretty effectively. lol
It did park VFP in its tracks.
I know that visual Studio got better each version presented to the public. Not only the M$ bits but the secondary tool vendors who enhanced those bits kept getting better and better with their offerings.
M$ put our free versions for you to download and use. They didn't include the big shop functionality but no problem. You got an IDE that could do Win Forms, Web Forms, Web Services, and over time it delivered a lot of the greatness for HTML5, CSS, jQuery all still at no cost to you.
C'mon, Stephen, don't be a buzzkill. We're still having fun with the Toilet.Net joke. <bg>
You are right though...as DotNet matured, vendor tools supporting it got better as well....as expected.
Ah, the DotNet boom/bust timeframe. Remember when M$ was putting .Net
behind EVERYTHING!?!?!?! Office.Net, VS.Net, Toilet.Net, ....<<
Yeah, I wanted someone to put out a Cardfile.NET so that MSFT would promote it as "revolutionary"...
Bill Anderson
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon Virus-free. www.avast.com https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 10:38 AM, < mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com> wrote:
On 2017-10-19 12:03, Bill Anderson wrote:
Michael,
I'm pretty sure it was at our December 2000 LA Fox meeting.
Ah, the DotNet boom/bust timeframe. Remember when M$ was putting .Net behind EVERYTHING!?!?!?! Office.Net, VS.Net, Toilet.Net, ....
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On 2017-10-19 16:45, Bill Anderson wrote:
Ah, the DotNet boom/bust timeframe. Remember when M$ was putting .Net
behind EVERYTHING!?!?!?! Office.Net, VS.Net, Toilet.Net, ....<<
Yeah, I wanted someone to put out a Cardfile.NET so that MSFT would promote it as "revolutionary"...
ROFL!!!!!!
"Knock, knock." "Who's there?" very long pause.... "Java."
Dave
-----Original Message----- From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of mbsoftwaresolutions@mbsoftwaresolutions.com Sent: 20 October 2017 15:39 To: ProFox Email List profox@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
On 2017-10-19 16:45, Bill Anderson wrote:
Ah, the DotNet boom/bust timeframe. Remember when M$ was putting .Net
behind EVERYTHING!?!?!?! Office.Net, VS.Net, Toilet.Net, ....<<
Yeah, I wanted someone to put out a Cardfile.NET so that MSFT would promote it as "revolutionary"...
ROFL!!!!!!
[excessive quoting removed by server]
+1 LOL
Paul H. Tarver Tarver Program Consultants, Inc. Tel: 601-483-4404 Email: paul@tpcqpc.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Vince Teachout Sent: Friday, October 20, 2017 10:46 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] learn more about what you hate so much.
On 10/20/2017 10:55 AM, Dave Crozier wrote:
"Knock, knock." "Who's there?" very long pause.... "Java."
BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA!
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Stephen Russell srussell705@gmail.com wrote:
It has morphed from the .NET you all hated so much 15 years ago. They show working in Chrome and not Bing.
It wasn't that I *HATED* DotNet, but I was disappointed in how MS treated FoxPro and developers, and that the DotNet 1.0 preview I saw made it clear that it wasn't ready for prime time for a long time. But I had solutions to deliver to clients in 2002, 2003 and beyond, and I needed to find tools that were ready to do that. VFP could do that, but I couldn't trust MS.
I told people at the time that DotNet was going to recap the entire lifecycle of Java (new frameworks! new GUIs! New presentation layers!), and I predicted it would be a good solid platform for development in 8 or 10 years. Luckily, there were many alternatives to bridge the gap. I like to think I've mastered one or two of them in the past decade and a half. For the investment of another 10,000 hours, I might master DotNet, but I don't see the payback.
On 2017-10-04 11:01, Stephen Russell wrote:
This is the 2017 .NET Conference Keynote
So glad it's not MonkeyBoy dancing around like an idiot. M$ under this new boss seems much better than the Ballmer years.
-
Alan Bourke -
Bill Anderson -
Charlie-gm -
Darren -
Dave Crozier -
Ed Leafe -
Eric Selje -
Kevin Cully -
Kurt Wendt -
mbsoftwaresolutions＠mbsoftwaresolutions.com -
Paul H. Tarver -
Paul Hemans -
Stephen Russell -
Ted Roche -
Thierry Nivelet -
Vince Teachout