Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
"How do I get X to do Y?" is a common question we see on this forum as well as others. (Trigger for this was actually a LUG posting, not here).
The Original Poster (OP) fails to explain:
- why they want to do this, - what their environment is (OS, #records, performance needed, etc.), - what they have tried as an alternative, - the bigger picture of how they got themselves painted into this corner, and what (ultimately) they *REALLY* need, which is not X to do Y but starting at A and end up at Y.
I sympathize that a lot of posters have pulled out all their hair and are at the last resort, but that's no excuse for taking it out on the unpaid volunteers here to help. We geeks often make the bad assumption that everyone knows what we're talking about when we ask an 8-word question, but we can't really fill in "when I try this in MariaDB" or "on the web" or "using a Database Container with Stonefield Toolkit."
I have spent a *LOT* of time answering questions online, starting with the Dartmouth Time-Sharing System in 1976 (happy anniversary to me!) and I need to cut back on annoying myself by asking "What are you seeing?" "What have you tried?" and "Have you looked at this: www.lmgtfy.com?q=HowDoIGetXToDoY""
If you don't post: "What I'm trying to Do" "What I tried" "What results I got" "What results I expected" "What my environment is" - relevant OS, hardware, LAN, infrastructure, data structures, size of the data, etc.
then you're not going to get a useful answer. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
(Also, you'll find, if you write the long post of the 5 What's I listed above, nine times out of ten you'll work out the solution. At least, it works for me.)
Bonus points if you've read:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Read it again.
This public service message brought to you by Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
I often thought that, on any forum, hitting the 'new' button should show up some form with the 5 required information Ted mentioned AND A SINGLE ISSUE PER QUESTION! ;)
Thierry Nivelet FoxInCloud Give your VFP app a second life in the cloud http://foxincloud.com/
Le 19/02/2016 16:04, Ted Roche a écrit :
Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
"How do I get X to do Y?" is a common question we see on this forum as well as others. (Trigger for this was actually a LUG posting, not here).
The Original Poster (OP) fails to explain:
- why they want to do this,
- what their environment is (OS, #records, performance needed, etc.),
- what they have tried as an alternative,
- the bigger picture of how they got themselves painted into this
corner, and what (ultimately) they *REALLY* need, which is not X to do Y but starting at A and end up at Y.
I sympathize that a lot of posters have pulled out all their hair and are at the last resort, but that's no excuse for taking it out on the unpaid volunteers here to help. We geeks often make the bad assumption that everyone knows what we're talking about when we ask an 8-word question, but we can't really fill in "when I try this in MariaDB" or "on the web" or "using a Database Container with Stonefield Toolkit."
I have spent a *LOT* of time answering questions online, starting with the Dartmouth Time-Sharing System in 1976 (happy anniversary to me!) and I need to cut back on annoying myself by asking "What are you seeing?" "What have you tried?" and "Have you looked at this: www.lmgtfy.com?q=HowDoIGetXToDoY""
If you don't post: "What I'm trying to Do" "What I tried" "What results I got" "What results I expected" "What my environment is" - relevant OS, hardware, LAN, infrastructure, data structures, size of the data, etc.
then you're not going to get a useful answer. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
(Also, you'll find, if you write the long post of the 5 What's I listed above, nine times out of ten you'll work out the solution. At least, it works for me.)
Bonus points if you've read:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Read it again.
This public service message brought to you by Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
On 19/02/2016 15:04, Ted Roche wrote:
Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
"How do I get X to do Y?" is a common question we see on this forum as well as others. (Trigger for this was actually a LUG posting, not here).
<snip>
Well I've learned today what STFW means.
Your rant was useful then :-)
Peter
This communication is intended for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. The contents are confidential and may be protected in law. Unauthorised use, copying or disclosure of any of it may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone or email.
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London Office:17-19 Foley Street, London W1W 6DW Tel:0207 299 7960
I've never seen STFW before, until you just mentioned it Peter. Of course, the milder term used by Ted is the LMGTFY.com! :-)
Regards, Kurt Wendt Consultant
Tel. +1-212-747-9100 www.GlobeTax.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Peter Cushing Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 10:18 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF][RANT] I need to stop playing 20 questions...
On 19/02/2016 15:04, Ted Roche wrote:
Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
"How do I get X to do Y?" is a common question we see on this forum as well as others. (Trigger for this was actually a LUG posting, not here).
<snip>
Well I've learned today what STFW means.
Your rant was useful then :-)
Peter
This communication is intended for the person or organisation to whom it is addressed. The contents are confidential and may be protected in law. Unauthorised use, copying or disclosure of any of it may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone or email.
www.whisperingsmith.com
Whispering Smith Ltd Head Office:61 Great Ducie Street, Manchester M3 1RR. Tel:0161 831 3700 Fax:0161 831 3715
London Office:17-19 Foley Street, London W1W 6DW Tel:0207 299 7960
[excessive quoting removed by server]
Enforcing of these type of rules is why the StackExchange sites have such a good signal-to-noise ratio.
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Alan Bourke alanpbourke@fastmail.fm wrote:
Enforcing of these type of rules is why the StackExchange sites have such a good signal-to-noise ratio.
Absolutely. But I don't mind a lot of shoot-the-breeze mixed in with "Help me fix my client crisis." We're a good bunch here and and if we wander off topic to talk about 3-D dragons or "this is the year for the Cubs" or serious philosophical discussions about the nature of our business, that's fine, and what makes the forum so valuable.
But if you want someone to help you fix an issue, you've got to post it like a bug report.
Posts like "Hey, guys, has anyone had trouble printing to an HP printer?" just waste everyone's time. Of course we have, from "PC Load Letter? WTF?" to bad drivers to PCL5/6 incompatibilities to "I forgot to plug it in" to rodent droppings in the paper trays.
Hey - I liked that Dragons comment!
Regards, Kurt Wendt Consultant
Tel. +1-212-747-9100 www.GlobeTax.com
-----Original Message----- From: ProfoxTech [mailto:profoxtech-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ted Roche Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 10:44 AM To: profoxtech@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF][RANT] I need to stop playing 20 questions...
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 10:31 AM, Alan Bourke alanpbourke@fastmail.fm wrote:
Enforcing of these type of rules is why the StackExchange sites have such a good signal-to-noise ratio.
Absolutely. But I don't mind a lot of shoot-the-breeze mixed in with "Help me fix my client crisis." We're a good bunch here and and if we wander off topic to talk about 3-D dragons or "this is the year for the Cubs" or serious philosophical discussions about the nature of our business, that's fine, and what makes the forum so valuable.
But if you want someone to help you fix an issue, you've got to post it like a bug report.
Posts like "Hey, guys, has anyone had trouble printing to an HP printer?" just waste everyone's time. Of course we have, from "PC Load Letter? WTF?" to bad drivers to PCL5/6 incompatibilities to "I forgot to plug it in" to rodent droppings in the paper trays.
-- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Ted Roche tedroche@gmail.com wrote:
Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
The only quibble is that I wouldn't add the [NF] tag -- it is F and everything else!
...and you are right, at least 40% of the time, formulating a good question, putting it in writing, adding history, etc. helps me solve the problem without needing to Send. About 30% more of the time, the answer comes to me within .003 seconds **after** hitting Send!
Ken
--- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html ---
Ted,
Your "rant" included --- Also, you'll find, if you write the long post of the 5 What's I listed above, nine times out of ten you'll work out the solution. At least, it works for me. ---
Very many years ago I had a professor - fraternity brother, Marine that served in Korea, amazing man - who said pretty much the same. "Ask the right question and the answer becomes obvious".
I have made a living from the Fox since the DOS days. I have been on this list since the Darcy days. I read almost all posts - easy way to gain insight, but generally lurk.
I am amazed at there are people - not newbies - that ask to have someone do their work for them. Once they find water in the well, they keep coming back. I am also amazed at how you, and many others keep providing guidance.
Your rant was not a rant, rather a reality check. Thank you and numerous others on this list for their invaluable contributions.
Carl Lindner
-----Original Message----- From: ProFox [mailto:profox-bounces@leafe.com] On Behalf Of Ted Roche Sent: Friday, February 19, 2016 10:05 AM To: profox@leafe.com Subject: [NF][RANT] I need to stop playing 20 questions...
Happy Friday, all, and permit me to vent a little steam...
"How do I get X to do Y?" is a common question we see on this forum as well as others. (Trigger for this was actually a LUG posting, not here).
The Original Poster (OP) fails to explain:
- why they want to do this, - what their environment is (OS, #records, performance needed, etc.), - what they have tried as an alternative, - the bigger picture of how they got themselves painted into this corner, and what (ultimately) they *REALLY* need, which is not X to do Y but starting at A and end up at Y.
I sympathize that a lot of posters have pulled out all their hair and are at the last resort, but that's no excuse for taking it out on the unpaid volunteers here to help. We geeks often make the bad assumption that everyone knows what we're talking about when we ask an 8-word question, but we can't really fill in "when I try this in MariaDB" or "on the web" or "using a Database Container with Stonefield Toolkit."
I have spent a *LOT* of time answering questions online, starting with the Dartmouth Time-Sharing System in 1976 (happy anniversary to me!) and I need to cut back on annoying myself by asking "What are you seeing?" "What have you tried?" and "Have you looked at this: www.lmgtfy.com?q=HowDoIGetXToDoY""
If you don't post: "What I'm trying to Do" "What I tried" "What results I got" "What results I expected" "What my environment is" - relevant OS, hardware, LAN, infrastructure, data structures, size of the data, etc.
then you're not going to get a useful answer. Garbage In, Garbage Out.
(Also, you'll find, if you write the long post of the 5 What's I listed above, nine times out of ten you'll work out the solution. At least, it works for me.)
Bonus points if you've read:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Read it again.
This public service message brought to you by Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
-- Ted Roche Ted Roche & Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com
[excessive quoting removed by server]
On 2016-02-19 16:26, Carl Lindner wrote:
Good to see you're still here, Carl! I haven't seen any posts from you in a long while (but then again, I've been away at times too).
--Mike
On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Carl Lindner carl@bdos.com wrote:
Ted,
Your "rant" included --- Also, you'll find, if you write the long post of the 5 What's I listed above, nine times out of ten you'll work out the solution. At least, it works for me. ---
Very many years ago I had a professor - fraternity brother, Marine that served in Korea, amazing man - who said pretty much the same. "Ask the right question and the answer becomes obvious".
I suspect we've been re-learning that lesson since the days of Socrates. Or Og the Caveman.
It's hard to methodically attack a problem with all the distractions around us: the boss yelling, or the clients complaining or the phone ringing or twitter tweeting. Sometimes it helps to have an uninvolved 3rd party look over the situation.
Some people seem to have an inclination, though nature or training, to attack a problem in a logical fashion (I blame a natural inclination towards science, and some pretty rigorous training as an electronic and electrical technician, courtesy of the U.S. Navy). Some people don't understand the inner workings of the software so aberrant behavior is just more mysterious magic to them. A thorough theoretical baseline helps a lot. I've wired NAND and NOR gates, flipped bits, written in assembler, dug into database, ISAM, and b-tree structures and algorithms, and written a fair amount of low-level stuff.
And some of us have been doing this for 30 or 40 years now and have pretty much seen, or made, every mistake in the book and can remember a few of them.
Even the one I wasted my Monday on. It was a 403 ("Forbidden") error generated, as they usually are, by the last thing I had changed. Couldn't see the forest for the trees and spent a few hours chasing my tail and various wild geese until I went back to fundamentals and stepped through the process to the point of error, and there was my mistake, plain as day.
It might be fun to consider the opposite of the ProFox list, something like stackexchange.org. There's no forum, no shoot-the-breeze, no [NF] or [OT] drifting into business practices or politics or copyright law. And consequently, there's mostly no "there" there. To me, at least, it lacks any sense of community. There are questions, there are answers, sometimes right ones, sometimes bone-headedly-wrong ones, and that's that. Throw a couple keywords in the search box and take your chances on finding the "right" answer. Even if you asked the wrong question.
I have made a living from the Fox since the DOS days. I have been on this list since the Darcy days. I read almost all posts - easy way to gain insight, but generally lurk.
I am amazed at there are people - not newbies - that ask to have someone do their work for them. Once they find water in the well, they keep coming back.
There's a sociology PhD dissertation in here somewhere, I suspect, on email list behaviors.
I am also amazed at how you, and many others keep providing guidance.
And there's a separate dissertation (or perhaps a psychiatric diagnosis) on whether the most helpful of us suffer from a compulsion or unhealthy need to be seen as helpful...
Your rant was not a rant, rather a reality check. Thank you and numerous others on this list for their invaluable contributions.
Well, it's a worthwhile reminder to all we can make this a more valuable list by each contributing what we can.
Thanks for the rare posting!
-
Alan Bourke -
Carl Lindner -
Ken Kixmoeller (ProFox) -
Kurt Wendt -
mbsoftwaresolutions＠mbsoftwaresolutions.com -
Peter Cushing -
Ted Roche -
Thierry Nivelet